the singularity of being and nothingness
The Closing of the Evangelical Mind
Let's just be completely perspicuous: evangelicalism is doomed.
It's leaders sense it. It's adherents feel it, uneasily. Everyone looking at it from the outside fully acknowledges it.
The most pitiable fact, however, is that evangelical's fatal wound is entirely self-inflicted. It's arsenic? Sola Scripura.
Why, the inquisitive reader may ask, is sola Scripture so deadly? The answer is quite simple, yet quite terrifying.
Sola Scriptura, in its simplest and most consistent form, is a presupposition that the Christian Scriptures are not only sufficient for determining divine truth, but moreover that they are exclusively privy to this role. Therefore, any other potential sources of authority–such as Christian tradition, historical theology, and even the creeds and councils of the ecumenical Church–while potentially useful in "expounding on the truth already present sufficiently in Scripture," are fundamentlly adiaphora–unessential to faith, right belief, and Christian praxis.
Obviously, one might question why this is a problem. After all, the Scriptures are obviously a crucial and irreplacable source of authority within the life of the Church. Should they not be given the primal and exclusive place of authority? The answer will depend upon how much one cares about the survival of the Christian Church.
Historically, the ecumenical church did not hold to sola Scriptura, despite the poor scholarship and misrepresntative claims of some modern Protestants thinkers. As a very brief and elementary review of the historical crises which rocked the ecumenical church will reveal, it was the apostolic tradition of the Church–that is, the Scriptures and tradition in inseparable tandem–that guided the early thinkers and leaders through the theological landmines of the early centuries.
Take the formation of the canon, for example. While it is unmistakably clear that there existed–quite early–a sort of "proto-canon" that was widely accepted by most of the churches of the first several centuries following the apostles, it is well established that the final, definitive framing of the NT canon was not completed until well into the fourth century. Up until the final conciliar determination, controversy still surrounded several of the lesser letters of the NT, their legitimacy not being determined ecumneically until the pronouncement of the councils, with many quite popular works being finally excluded.
The immediate question, then, is how the church was able to function and successfully navigate the theological landmines of the earliest centuries (gnosticism, Arianism, Apollonarianism, etc.) without the complete canon of Scriptures which Protestants understand to be the "sufficient and exclusive" source of theological authority for the Church? That is, if the canon was not fully formed until the fourth century, upon which authority were they relying in the meantime?
The answer, written across the pages of all the major thinkers of that time, was quite simple: the apostolic tradition. While the Scriptures (here understood in a non-canonical sense) certainly held a central and incredibly important part in the formation of doctrine and right belief, the ancient writers clearly understood that a grander tradition was undergirding the Scriptures and the development of the church, a tradition which had not only given rise to the writing of the Scriptures, but also preserved its meaning and authority through the succession of apostolic authority in the bishopric.
Another example will help to clarify this even more. Consider the Arian controversy. In the fourth century, a charismatic Egyptian bishop gained immense popularity among the masses of Christians. The only problem was that this bishop–Arius–taught that Christ was not consubstantial in nature with God (per the later ecumenical determination), but rather that "there was a time when he was not," that Christ was but the apex of God's creative work. As to his divinity, Arius taught that Christ, though created, was divinized and was made through his glorification to become in grace what God was in nature.
The particularly interesting part of Arius' teaching, however, is that it was based nearly exclusively upon the Scriptures. Of particular use to Arius were Jesus' words of subordination to the Father, that "the Father is greater than I." Arius also made effective use of the Jewish Schema, arguing that to posit consubstantiality in Godhead between the Father and Christ would be to divide the Oneness of the divinity, a conclusion clearly in contrast to the unity and simplicity of the "Unoriginate."
As well documented in the history, the story goes that the Arians' teachings eventually led to a crisis in the life of the Church, compelling Emporer Constantine to convene the Council at Nicaea in order for the church to arrive at a definitive conclusion on the issue of Christ's divinity once and for all.
What is of most interest, however, is the means by which Arius and his followers were overcome. While Bishop Alexander and others proferred the obligatory contra proof-texts ("I and the Father are one", etc.), it became immediately clear that the issue could not be resolved on the basis of the biblical texts, for it was the force and biblical-orientation of Arius's interpretations that had created the crisis in the first place. How, then, did the ecumencial church finally arrive at a solution?
As before, an appeal was made to the apostolic tradition. Simplistically stated, the victorious orthodoxy was that which was consistent with the tradition of interpretation that had been passed on from the apostles and preserved within the succession of bishops. This appeal was finally compelling for the primal reason that it cohered with the historical interpretation of the Church concerning Christ's divinity and consubstantiality in Godhead with the Father. Though forcefully and exclusively based upon the Scriptures, Arius' "biblical" argument was ultimately rejected because it lacked a substantive tradition behind it. Again, while it was certainly impressive and internally consistent from a purely interpretive standpoint (as nearly any interpretation can be), Arius' interpretation itself was rejected because it was not consistent with the apostolic tradition of the church, the interpretive matrix handed down from the apostles through the bishops.
Okay, so back to the original topic–what does a bunch of dead, fourth century bishops and presbytrs and their arguments about the divinity of Christ have to do with the doom of evangelicalism? I will tell you.
As noted earlier, the primal and defining tenant of evangelicalism is sola Scriptura, the sufficiency and exclusivity of the Scriptures for authority in Christian faith and right belief. However, as the reader has probably by now realized, this methodological assumptions bears a number of disturbing similarities to the Arian dilemma.
That is, once the Scriptures are divorced from the stream of historical theology and apostolic tradition, there is no sense in which they retain any authority. This is a bold claim, of course, but it is self-evident. As any peice of literature requires interpretation, any act of interpretation will indelibly engage the personal subjectivities of the individual interpreter. While the presuppositions of the interpreter can, to greater or lesser degrees, be self-critically regulated, there is no way in which they can be eliminated. That is, all interpretations will bear an indelible philosophical mark of their interpreters.
If sola Scriptura is to be countenanced in a consistent way, then, one must argue that there exists no value external to the authority of the Scriptures. But if this is asserted, one has in fact posited the forc
e
and authority
of Scripture within one's own person, for any attempt to extract a supposed "sufficient and exclusive" authority and meaning from the Scriptures will necessarily proceed through the personal subjectivities of the individual interpreter.
As has been borne out in the history of evangelicalism, such location of ultimate authority within the individual interpreter can only lead to division and dissention. As interpretations come into conflict and have no authority external to them by which the meaningfulness and force of each might be adjudicated, the modus operandi of the interpreter must be either capitulation to the hegemony of anothers' thought, or the exclusion and marginalization of all rival interpretations. As the interpretation of Scripture becomes more and more tenuous, so inversely becomes the closing of the mind and heart to others, for all energy must be expended to preserve the hegemony of interpretation. Inevitably, the force of interpretation will be subjected to claims of the superintending work of the "Spirit" in relation to the interpreter's conclusion, thus creating an even more devious and ultimately destructive distinction between the interpreter (who has the "Spirit") and his/her detractors (who must categorically not have the "Spirit").
More dangerous still is when this need for exclusivism and marginlalization is fused with an overly active extension of the meaning and authority of Scripture to the physical and social sciences. Although there exists no explicit impetus within historical theology for such an extension, modern interpretations of Scripture based upon the subjectivities of atomized, individuated interpreters tends to lead to extrodinarily foolish and intellectually destructive ends, interpretations that posit inappropriate and illlegitimate tension between the content of interpretation and the reality of the universe in which we live.
The end of such an interpretive approach, without question, will be self-destruction and the ruin of evangelicalism. Such is based not upon the inappropriate motives of its members by any means; quite to the contrary, many feel quite passionately about this methodology, believing themselves to be preserving a key tenant of the Christian faith. However, as such an interpretive framework is entirely divorced from the historical life of the Christian faith and its fundamental elements, the logical end is what is running rampant in evangelicalism today–the reversion into the heresies of old couched in the authority of sola Scriptura.
All is not lost, however. In the historic church, the faith of old, is preserved the teaching of Christ and of the apostles who learned of him, a faith and tradition that endure and in which the Scriptures find their only home and ultimate fulfillment. The historic church lives on, waiting ever patiently with open arms to enfold its brothers and sisters. The wrongs and differences of the past are past; the time is now for healing, restoration and reconciliation. Outside of her walls, evangelicalism will continue to hurtle rapidly toward its imminent dissolution. However, within her walls, it can be a source of quickening and rejuvenation, a new found energy for the realization of the kingdom of God on earth.
*** Obligatory Note ***
I fully realize that my characterization of evangelicalism is not accurately descriptive of all evangelicals. I have many intelligent and thoughtful evangelical friends and collegues for whom I have the utmost respect. So then, in this post, I am merely responding to the trend that I see within evangelicalism and have no intention of form fitting all who would classify themselves as "evangelical" into this mold.
*** /End Obligatory Note ***
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about -1917 years ago
Wow, that was great. Really, I liked it. It’s like 9:00 on a Friday night and I’m reading this and working on a wedding message. I am a dork.
I think your criticism applies to more than just evangelicals. The paradigm you describe is used to understand and apply or reject scripture by all teams on both sides of the spectrum so that you hear a lot of personal interpretations and “power plays.”
I wonder if you have read or listened to “The Internet Monk” who claims himself as “Post-Evangelical”. It’s interesting and a thoughtful take on things that he provides.
Also, NT Wright’s big thick books that will be a five volume series, have you read those? I’m in the first part of the first volume and Wright talks about interpretation and story using what he calls “critical realism.” I ask this because from what I gathered above, the authority of Scripture comes from its testimony to Christ and as a continuation of that story of Christ told through the apostles in the first Christian communities and passed on down. I must also say I believe that the Scriptural authority comes from God, but God speaks in context and that context being the people of Christian community. Anyway, this is interesting to me. I talked to Dr. Bauer about this once as I was frustrated about the way scripture was used in my denomination, and he talked about proper inductive Bible study involving interpretation in community. I think this is applicable here as well depending how community is defined.
I am a protestant, but there are many times when I realize that the reformation was a protest that sometimes is more defined by Rome than anything else, meaning “we’re just the opposite of Rome.” Certainly there were abuses and misuses of “tradition” and the church’s translation – so I wonder what a corrective would look like today?
Or, would you perhaps simply sacrifice goats to Baal? Pagan.
about -1917 years ago
Wow, that was great. Really, I liked it. It’s like 9:00 on a Friday night and I’m reading this and working on a wedding message. I am a dork.
No way. At least you are doing something meaningful. I just spew pagan propoganda all day.
I think your criticism applies to more than just evangelicals. The paradigm you describe is used to understand and apply or reject scripture by all teams on both sides of the spectrum so that you hear a lot of personal interpretations and “power plays.”
Yes, good point. There is kind of an extreme within Protestantism that I see. On the one hand, there are the evangelicals and fundies who frantically scream about misinterpretations of Scripture, yet are incredibly blind to the subjectivities of their own interpretations. On the other side are those who could care less about Scripture AND tradition, choosing rather to capitulate to the trends of secular moral and political society. While certainly not perfect, I have tremendous respect for the Catholic and Orthodox positions in the midst of this insanity, for they seem to have a consistency and stalwartness about them that allows for a freshness in theological expression and praxis while yet retaining an incredible respect for and dependence upon the place and interpretation of Scripture within the continuing tradition of the church.
I wonder if you have read or listened to “The Internet Monk” who claims himself as “Post-Evangelical”. It’s interesting and a thoughtful take on things that he provides.
I visited that site a LONG time ago. I will have to check him out again.
Also, NT Wright’s big thick books that will be a five volume series, have you read those?
Oh yes, here is comes, the predictable Wright plug…j/k! I have been accused by some of advocating a Wrightian conception of justification by faith (the accusations coming from Calvinists, for the most part). Although I am not entirely familiar with his work on this, if it hacks off the Calvinists, it is obviously right…
I’m in the first part of the first volume and Wright talks about interpretation and story using what he calls “critical realism.” I ask this because from what I gathered above, the authority of Scripture comes from its testimony to Christ and as a continuation of that story of Christ told through the apostles in the first Christian communities and passed on down.
Yes, this is similar to what I would advocate. I think a position which does not incorporate the mediation of meaning within the community of faith historic is far too naive, or at least overly presumptive about the ability of the modern, individual interpreter to access the meanings within texts divorced millenia from the interpreter’s sitz em laben.
I must also say I believe that the Scriptural authority comes from God, but God speaks in context and that context being the people of Christian community.
While I would agree with you, I think this kind of notion is terribly abused by many. That is, the claim is made that “God is the author of the Scriptures,” and therefore they have absolute authority over faith and belief. However, as we have both noted, the divine authority of Scripture is ultimately only meaningful within the community of believers, as it was within this community that the Scriptures were written, transmitted, and perpetuated through the centuries. To be as bold as possible, I would assert that outside of the community of faith, they are fundamentally without value. Which, interestingly, is why I think it is somewhat misguided to attempt to submit secular society to the “authority” of Scripture, but that is just me…
Anyway, this is interesting to me. I talked to Dr. Bauer about this once as I was frustrated about the way scripture was used in my denomination, and he talked about proper inductive Bible study involving interpretation in community. I think this is applicable here as well depending how community is defined.
Would you mind expounding further upon how “Scripture is used in your denomination?” While I can probably make an educated guess, I would be very interested to hear your in-depth thoughts upon it and your experiences within it.
I am a protestant, but there are many times when I realize that the reformation was a protest that sometimes is more defined by Rome than anything else, meaning “we’re just the opposite of Rome.” Certainly there were abuses and misuses of “tradition” and the church’s translation – so I wonder what a corrective would look like today?
To be honest, I agree with your description of modern day Protestantism. Given the relationship between the Catholic Church and Protestantism, there is certainly nothing on the scale of the Reformation era that really justifies the continued polemics which I hear all the time (especially from those dirty Reformed). To be honest, I think the usefulness of the Reformation is well behind us and I see a dangerous trend within all aspects of Protestantism. On the fundamentalist/evangelical side you see an ever increasing fragmentation as the logic of sola Scriptura is pushed farther and farther. And on the other side (I’m thinking principally of the Episcopals) you have a complete disconnection from tradition and Scriptural interest. The reason that Catholicism and Orthodoxy have survived and continue to thrive today is because they connect to the history of the apostles, giving people an authority and tradition beyond the vagrancies of personal, isolationistic subjectivity; they are the ancient answers for the modern, disconnected post-modern. The traditions within Protestantism, however, are increasingly divorcing themselves from these traditions of faith, and will be further and further dependent upon the charisma of their leaders. But what will be left in their wake? Without a connection to the historical faith and belief of the ecumenical church, there will be little of meaningful value apart from the fragmented hegemonies of a million fractured denominations. This is principally why I think Protestantism cannot survive indefinitely and will only be saved by reunion and restoration with the historical traditions of faith. And at the same time, these historical traditions will only be complete when this return is made. I have little optimism of seeing this in my lifetime, as the change will invariably be extremely slow. Nonetheless, it is my hope and prayer.
Or, would you perhaps simply sacrifice goats to Baal? Pagan.
Hey, I don’t have the award for nothing… But seriously, thank you for your generous comments and for the stimulating thoughts. If you feel like posting something about your experience in your denomination concerning the “use” of Scripture, i would love to hear about it.
about -1917 years ago
I had a nice long reply and when I sent it something bad happened and I got an error message. I’ll try later…
about -1917 years ago
Of course the short one worked fine…
about -1917 years ago
I have it on my email–i will pot is for you.
about -1917 years ago
Mofast responds:
“The use of Scripture in my denomination that bothers me comes in many different forms. Some of it is akin to the evangelical problems that you have mentioned, so you get terrible (in my opinion) topical sermons (not that all topical are, but many) which may use upwards of 35 verses, all in isolation and out of context and all used simply to make a point, a tool used by the speaker in order to prove a point already arrived at. So, 25 ways to help your marriage ordered in a special acrostic using verses from all over the Bible, yet what holds it all together is the opinions of the preaher.
Of course this is, in many ways, a reaction to preaching which was taught in UM Seminaries in the 60’s and 70’s that somehow ignores the Bible altogether and comes off as a Chicken Soup for the soul – three points and a poem which may or may not be related to the scripture that happened to be read that day. Both of these strike me to be divorced from our Christian story. I’ve sat in our Annual conference, in a room with a group of 25 people supposedly “discerning” who was welcome in our church and who was not (this is a perpetual concern since no one actually wants to be Methodist). A pastor in the room made disparaging remarks about those who did not believe that homosexual ordination was proper – he set up a caricatured strawman and knocked it down “because the bible says…” he mimicked. Where do you even go with that? The command to love one another is trumpeted, but no one bothers to wonder what is meant by “love”, and certainly not bothered enough to check that out within the greater scriptural witness. Holiness is fractured into “social justice” and “personal holiness” and you can tell what team you are on by which holiness you follow. This also provides you with the portion of the canon you will read. We have UM bishops that deny traditionally orthodox Christian beliefs dealing with scripture, the resurrection, and even the necessity of bothering to read the Bible.
Your description rings true – and my point was added about all sides using sola scriptura that way – because I’ve seen UM people using whatever they can to back their point. People talk past each other. I talked to Dr. Bauer about the Orthodox faith and about the RC understanding of the church’s interpretations of scripture because, frankly, I was tired of crazy loud people saying whatever the hell they wanted and using the Bible in a purely rhetorical way. It was and still is in some ways appealing to me to be anchored in something older than 1968.
As far as NT Wright, well you already know my fondness for David Bentley Hart, if I master him and Wright I will be where I want to be theologically. I guess there is something positive in all this mess. We have some truly great theologians in our time. I think these two will leave a mark historically as well as some others (Volf comes to mind, but I am not at all familiar with him). By the way, I don’t do Wright’s argument justice, but it would be very interesting for me to hear your thoughts on the first part of the first book in relation to this post.
How long does it take to actually burn an entire goat?”
about -1917 years ago
The use of Scripture in my denomination that bothers me comes in many different forms. Some of it is akin to the evangelical problems that you have mentioned, so you get terrible (in my opinion) topical sermons (not that all topical are, but many) which may use upwards of 35 verses, all in isolation and out of context and all used simply to make a point, a tool used by the speaker in order to prove a point already arrived at. So, 25 ways to help your marriage ordered in a special acrostic using verses from all over the Bible, yet what holds it all together is the opinions of the preaher.
Ah, yes, the obligatory 35 random verses that all contain the word “love.” I’m already sick.
But yeah, I hear what you are saying. For whatever reason, the notion that the number of proof-texts is directly proportional to the truth of the message is quite interesting to me, for as you rightly note, it comes down to the preacher to string them together in a coherent and consistent manner. Personally, this kind of thinking presumes a very uncritical sense about the “inspiration of Scripture,” and misses the meaning of inspiration in the thoughts you outlined in your last comment.
Of course this is, in many ways, a reaction to preaching which was taught in UM Seminaries in the 60’s and 70’s that somehow ignores the Bible altogether and comes off as a Chicken Soup for the soul – three points and a poem which may or may not be related to the scripture that happened to be read that day. Both of these strike me to be divorced from our Christian story. I’ve sat in our Annual conference, in a room with a group of 25 people supposedly “discerning” who was welcome in our church and who was not (this is a perpetual concern since no one actually wants to be Methodist).
I know I don’t, lol! Just kidding, maybe…
A pastor in the room made disparaging remarks about those who did not believe that homosexual ordination was proper – he set up a caricatured strawman and knocked it down “because the bible says…” he mimicked. Where do you even go with that? The command to love one another is trumpeted, but no one bothers to wonder what is meant by “love”, and certainly not bothered enough to check that out within the greater scriptural witness. Holiness is fractured into “social justice” and “personal holiness” and you can tell what team you are on by which holiness you follow. This also provides you with the portion of the canon you will read. We have UM bishops that deny traditionally orthodox Christian beliefs dealing with scripture, the resurrection, and even the necessity of bothering to read the Bible.
Wow, I can definitely see that that would be a fairly frustrating state of events. It’s bad enough to argue across traditions in which he side holds different views of tradition, historical theology and the Scriptures. But when the fracturing is within a supposedly common tradition, you are right–where do you go? How can a tradition be united in the face of the fracturing of the larger tradition around them when they can’t even agree between themselves on the state and nature of their own common beliefs?
Your description rings true – and my point was added about all sides using sola scriptura that way – because I’ve seen UM people using whatever they can to back their point. People talk past each other. I talked to Dr. Bauer about the Orthodox faith and about the RC understanding of the church’s interpretations of scripture because, frankly, I was tired of crazy loud people saying whatever the hell they wanted and using the Bible in a purely rhetorical way. It was and still is in some ways appealing to me to be anchored in something older than 1968.
I completely agree. The more I see Protestantism fracture–and especially in light of the charicature which this creates of Christianity within the larger culture–the more I am strongly considering converting. At the same time, though, I fear that I will not be terribly effective and participating within the realization of ecumenism if I were to convert. So that continues to compel me to stay where I am and attempt to work toward this larger end in whatever way I can.
The problem, of course, is that there is so much vitriol across traditions. Some of my Reformed nemesi (is that word?)–are especially convinced in their identification of Rome with the Harlot of revelation. How do you overcome that? Probably with large, blunt objects.
As far as NT Wright, well you already know my fondness for David Bentley Hart, if I master him and Wright I will be where I want to be theologically.
When you master them, let me know, because I want to become your pupil. I just cannot seem to find the time to get into either of them significantly, to the peril of my soul.
I guess there is something positive in all this mess. We have some truly great theologians in our time. I think these two will leave a mark historically as well as some others (Volf comes to mind, but I am not at all familiar with him).
Volf is truly amazing. While certainly scandalizing to the run-of-the-mill Protestants, I think he is one of the most prophetic theological voices of the last century, and of this one as well.
By the way, I don’t do Wright’s argument justice, but it would be very interesting for me to hear your thoughts on the first part of the first book in relation to this post.
Unfortunately, I am not terribly familiar with this. Would you mind providing a brief summary?
How long does it take to actually burn an entire goat?
It depends, because the burn time is inversely proportional to the amount of self-mutalation. As PSA theory has taught us well, God responds best to violence and pain.
about -1917 years ago
mofast-
Of course this is, in many ways, a reaction to preaching which was taught in UM Seminaries in the 60’s and 70’s that somehow ignores the Bible altogether and comes off as a Chicken Soup for the soul – three points and a poem which may or may not be related to the scripture that happened to be read that day. Both of these strike me to be divorced from our Christian story. I’ve sat in our Annual conference, in a room with a group of 25 people supposedly “discerning” who was welcome in our church and who was not (this is a perpetual concern since no one actually wants to be Methodist).
As somebody who now works in a fairly large UM church, I can tell you that this form of preaching is still quite alive and well. Although our senior pastor (the main communicator) does a pretty good job of actually interacting with the scriptures, many of the other pastors at times don’t. I have noticed, however, that some of the younger ones (who have come out of seminary in the last ten years or so) have gotten away from the three points and the poem. Perhaps it’s a shift in homiletical training.
A pastor in the room made disparaging remarks about those who did not believe that homosexual ordination was proper – he set up a caricatured strawman and knocked it down “because the bible says…” he mimicked. Where do you even go with that? The command to love one another is trumpeted, but no one bothers to wonder what is meant by “love”, and certainly not bothered enough to check that out within the greater scriptural witness.
This kind of thing happens in my church as well. The strawman of intolerance and oppression is toted behind the message in case of any objection or disagreement, a strawman which eveyrone seems to agree is valid.
exist-
At the same time, though, I fear that I will not be terribly effective and participating within the realization of ecumenism if I were to convert. So that continues to compel me to stay where I am and attempt to work toward this larger end in whatever way I can.
a futile effort. Your interactions with Gojira and BlueCollar are indicative of any potential realization of ecumenism.
If Catholics and Orthodox get back together, I’m jumping on board.
about -1917 years ago
Dang it, I left another disappearing long comment. Can you rescue it again?
about -1917 years ago
Deviant
This kind of thing happens in my church as well. The strawman of intolerance and oppression is toted behind the message in case of any objection or disagreement, a strawman which eveyrone seems to agree is valid.
Yes, it’s like an agreed upon game. Sadly, I find it ends up producing an incredibly intolerant atmosphere.
Perhaps it’s a shift in homiletical training.
I think so. There have been, as far as I can tell, some helpful things happening in homiletics lately. I know it still goes on now because there are so many baby boomers and they have taken over. I suspect though that this is only a symptom of a deeper problem and the lack of understanding and discipleship it creates ends up making it a self perpetuating problem.
about -1917 years ago
mofast-
Dang it, I left another disappearing long comment. Can you rescue it again?
I must offer a gentle, yet firm rebuke here. The proper language to use here is damn it, not dang it. The fact that you have already invoked the use of whatever the hell. Please be consistent 😉
Yes, it’s like an agreed upon game. Sadly, I find it ends up producing an incredibly intolerant atmosphere.
lol…that’s so true. However, I can certainly understand where it comes from- those within the holiness tradition (as well as other Christian tradtions) don’t have the greatest track record in regards to separating a disagreement or condemnation of a mode of thought from the actual person or persons engaged in that thought. Unfortunately, it seems to me that the language of tolerance has gone beyond the denotation of tolerance.
Something extremely valuable that iIlearned in school- We need to accept-respect people and their ideas, but not respect-believe. This was coming from a class about intercultural ministry, and the professor there really kind of opened my eyes to new ways of thinking and perceiving the world and others, but at the same time managed to keep a measure of sanity.
I suspect though that this is only a symptom of a deeper problem and the lack of understanding and discipleship it creates ends up making it a self perpetuating problem.
I think I would agree. Per E-D’s post, I think the approbation of sola scriptura and the corollary lack of ultimate doctrinal historicity is at least in part foundational to this self-perpetuating problem.
about -1917 years ago
oops. I guess I didn’t quite close of the bolding.
about -1917 years ago
*off
about -1917 years ago
ED- how do you have so many comments attributed to yourself? Did you arbitrarily assign yourself so many comments? If so, I now have more respect for you.
about -1917 years ago
mofast–
For whatever reason, the “session” is timing out when during your long posts. I would suggest typing it up in notepad or something equivalent, log in, and then paste it. I apologize, and I will try to remedy this situation.
Here is your post:
“Ok, first off I’m glad that you found that post because as you can see it was rather lengthy and now I won’t have to curse as much… ”
Unfortunately, I am not terribly familiar with this. Would you mind providing a brief summary?
“I’m going to try here, with trepidation as I don’t feel like I have a good grasp on Wright’s thinking. However, it strikes me as relevant in this situation. He spends time discussing epistemology and literature and history in light of the enlightenment. He goes down the road of the fairly familiar ideas of the “naieve realism” which would say these things are purely objective and can be known without subjectivity, then that they are purely subjective and all we can eventually hope to have a clue to is the interpreter’s take on things – so meaning then lies in the person. This is of course modernity played out to its conclusion in post modernity.
He proposes “critical realism” that sees knowledge in terms of stories as opposed to connected diodes of facts. So the story is the over arching theme, not the piece making the whole. Much could be said right there. He goes on to say that the criticism that story in the sense of history can’t tell us what happened is off base. That is not to say that things shouldn’t be tested, but that in testing we get a sense of what stories make most sense of the data we have. He often uses the phrase, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.” So I have spent much of my reading battling hunger.
He points out something that isn’t new to us, that every historian has a bias or viewpoint, but then he challenges the post modern notion that this would preclude them from giving the truth or an accurate view of it. A good example he uses is that a mathematician is biased in the sense of telling us that 2 + 2 = 4, but that bias is not a bad thing. She is interested in mathematics and that seems to be the person you would like working on this. I can see that this then opens the doors for taking the Gospels seriously instead of ruling them out prima facie.
Anyway, Wright’s emphasis on story seems to be important here in several ways, one of which is our involvement within the grander story of God’s salvific work through Christ. The Bible cannot be this divorced self-evident truth, not because it’s not true, but because that very notion itself is deficient. Even the canonization of the Bible took place in story. One of the things that I had to learn and reconcile in seminary was my view of inspiration. If God didn’t just write it and plop it down, then could God be in it? I came to the conclusion that God was in the process, which necessarily means that God worked in a certain community in an inspirational way over a period of time. This was (in my view) not just in the writing, but in redaction and selection of the canon. It continues in interpretation and preaching today – hopefully. But this is scripture working in concert with God and God’s people. Dr. Bauer’s response to me was interesting and insightful. His difficulty with the RC tradition was having the interpretation already set for you when you encountered the Bible. This did not allow the Scripture to speak on its own terms. Ironically, this is, I think, a complaint we have here too. His answer was that interpretation must take place within Christian community and tradition. I think his answer provides a way for Protestants to engage the Bible that is more appropriate.
Anyway, Wright’s stuff is worth a read and I wish I had more time and understanding for it myself. As far as the UM church you are right in the difficulty and impossibillity therein. We are in reality two (as least) churches who pretend to be “United in our connection”. I have pastoral counseling theories as to why this is. Alright, I think this discussion is going to help me in writing my theological paper for full ordination. There is a question I’ve needed to address better and it is about the Wesleyan quadrilateral and my understanding of it.
On a final side note; in my denomination you can do almost anything from being a fundamentalist to unitarian, you can break many of the Discipline’s rules. However, there are some things that unite us. The Wesleyan quadrilateral is akin to divine revelation. We baptize babies. We have a pension. And we have an itinerant system. As you can see, in the scope of possible Christian beliefs and theology, these are some of the most crucial aspects to anyone’s faith and it is a good thing that we are united on them. Oh yeah, we do accept pagans…”
about -1917 years ago
End bold now
about -1917 years ago
ED- how do you have so many comments attributed to yourself? Did you arbitrarily assign yourself so many comments? If so, I now have more respect for you.
Obviously, it is an arbitrary assignment of posts. Fear me!!!
about 12 years ago
Marty,I know that “new wind of vtatliiy” is your burden and desire…it is also mine. May the Lord grant, through prayers and faithfulness, the harvest from this culture! Thanks for insight…and your heart!
about -1917 years ago
I humbly request 1800 comments.
about -1917 years ago
I wondered if something similar to “timing out” was happening. My apologies.
During the wedding I just officiated I met my first real life “KJV only” person. I am so used to people who accept anything this caught me way off guard. It’s not even on my radar screen. This girl asked me what version I used and I told her. She said she only used King James. I innocently asked why. She said it was the only real version – the old version – not “made easier so people could memorize it.” This was followed by, “I’m Baptist” as if that explained everything.
I didn’t know what to say. I decided against commenting on Greek or Hebrew and the like. I was close to telling her I was so much more educated and learned than her and she needed to stop for her own sake. Honestly, I don’t know where you would begin with that point of view – in order to do it in a loving way I mean. I mean I’ve heard of such people, but right now I feel like I’ve just had a chance encounter with a woodland elf.
about -1917 years ago
a futile effort. Your interactions with Gojira and BlueCollar are indicative of any potential realization of ecumenism.
Believe me, it is not the Reformed that I have in mind. Rather, it is those like the Anglican’s who have not completely jettisoned historical theology and the meaningfulness of tradition that I am thinking of…
If Catholics and Orthodox get back together, I’m jumping on board.